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Başvurunu YapTransportation Post-Apocalypse: Who gets it right?
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I think bikes are also not very good since they need maintenance and parts, and it will be very hard to find those and they won't be produced anymore.
Nah, bike parts last a long time and are relatively simple to fix or even make (as long as you're not talking about some dentist's $10k carbon road bike). My main (non-electric) bike is from the early '90s and is still on most of its original parts, except for stuff like tires, brake pads, and the chain.
Also, bikes have existed for 200 years, which means they predate things like, say, the assembly line. I'm pretty confident that even in a post-apocalyptic scenario you could scrape together enough of a supply line and basic tools to build them from salvaged raw materials.
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Obtain good-quality oil. The easiest oils to use for biodiesel are neutral vegetable oils like canola, corn, and sunflower oil
I think this where the crunch would come in. Biodiesels are economically feasible because of factory farming, which have massive carbon inputs. Could a small community farm enough biodiesel to make the investment in that bushy tech tree worthwhile? I tend to doubt it.
of factory farming, which have massive carbon inputs
The fuel used to run the tractors can itself also be biodiesel.
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One thing I always look at in post-apocalyptic literature is how they treat transportation: notably, are people still driving cars and how long can they do so and under what conditions?
Entering our current oil crunch, I think it's obvious how fragile the ecosystem around cars are, but just letting the car sit unused and untreated for as little as a month can start to introduce\ problems. The idea that you can just pop into a car that's been abandoned for 3 years, pull the keys out from behind the visor, and start driving is unrealistic.
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Best: The Postman. We're back to walking and riding horses.
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Good: The Last of Us, Season 1. People walk or ride horses, when our heroes DO find a working truck, it is treated as the jackpot it is--and I think it even had a spare gas tank in the back to maximize distance traveled to harvest gasoline. Realistically, gas as a fuel for fires would be a valuable enough commodity that it would have been scavenged, but they need to do some traveling and high speed dragons are not available in this genre (Reign of Fire aside).
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Worst: Jericho. Nuclear explosions in the US pretty much wreck everything and despite the town of Jericho being completely isolated, people just drive their pickup trucks around all seasons long without comment. Horses and bicycles are maddeningly present but rarely used. I think the show thought American audiences could accept a premise where the federal government collapses after multiple nuclear strikes, but not where people in Kansas got off oil dependency--that would be too out there.
Anecdotally, diesels can sit for a long time and be just fine. I suspect there's something a mechanic could do with an abandoned gasoline car as well. The limiting factor, if we're talking full collapse of civilisation, is refined petroleum.
During the world wars, there were people converting IC engines to run off of wood gasifiers. For that, you either need the skills and tools to reprogram engine timings, or a carburator, though. Diesels can run on vegetable oil, and EVs can run off a solar panel, or, if still running, a wind turbine.
Horses aren't cheap or free to run, either. No matter what, there will be less vehicles, the ones that do exists will tend to be heavily loaded to save money (like you sometimes see in the third world) and they're going to take longer to get where they're going.
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Nah, bike parts last a long time and are relatively simple to fix or even make (as long as you're not talking about some dentist's $10k carbon road bike). My main (non-electric) bike is from the early '90s and is still on most of its original parts, except for stuff like tires, brake pads, and the chain.
Also, bikes have existed for 200 years, which means they predate things like, say, the assembly line. I'm pretty confident that even in a post-apocalyptic scenario you could scrape together enough of a supply line and basic tools to build them from salvaged raw materials.
Lathe + drill + foundry to cast a big enough chunk for the lathe and drill. Rivets for putting together the frame. (And some power source to run your shop)
Maybe an endmill or even CNC machine, if you're feeling fancy, or welding for the frame (someone else might know what exact kind of welding you need).
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Survival Family : People use their old bicycle to go in a road-trip away out of the city.
Not sure why bicycle is so much ignored in post-apocalyptic context when it's very efficient
Also why they're still a huge deal in, like, rural Africa.
Most of how the world would look, if the industrial base and institutions were gone, can be predicted by looking at places where they were never built in the first place.
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One thing I always look at in post-apocalyptic literature is how they treat transportation: notably, are people still driving cars and how long can they do so and under what conditions?
Entering our current oil crunch, I think it's obvious how fragile the ecosystem around cars are, but just letting the car sit unused and untreated for as little as a month can start to introduce\ problems. The idea that you can just pop into a car that's been abandoned for 3 years, pull the keys out from behind the visor, and start driving is unrealistic.
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Best: The Postman. We're back to walking and riding horses.
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Good: The Last of Us, Season 1. People walk or ride horses, when our heroes DO find a working truck, it is treated as the jackpot it is--and I think it even had a spare gas tank in the back to maximize distance traveled to harvest gasoline. Realistically, gas as a fuel for fires would be a valuable enough commodity that it would have been scavenged, but they need to do some traveling and high speed dragons are not available in this genre (Reign of Fire aside).
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Worst: Jericho. Nuclear explosions in the US pretty much wreck everything and despite the town of Jericho being completely isolated, people just drive their pickup trucks around all seasons long without comment. Horses and bicycles are maddeningly present but rarely used. I think the show thought American audiences could accept a premise where the federal government collapses after multiple nuclear strikes, but not where people in Kansas got off oil dependency--that would be too out there.
Judgement at Nuremberg, you see people riding bicycles.
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Obtain good-quality oil. The easiest oils to use for biodiesel are neutral vegetable oils like canola, corn, and sunflower oil
I think this where the crunch would come in. Biodiesels are economically feasible because of factory farming, which have massive carbon inputs. Could a small community farm enough biodiesel to make the investment in that bushy tech tree worthwhile? I tend to doubt it.
In terms of quantity, it depends on competition from food production, basically.
Modern fertilizer and pesticides allow you to get a much higher yield on the same land, and modern farming vehicles allow you to plant and harvest whatever oil crops without an army of labourers. If you had a ton of idle land, because all the urban people are dead, it reduces to the second problem.
Pressing/steeping the oil out of it is another challenge. Probably surmountable, although it's still going to cost a lot more than it does now.
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Anecdotally, diesels can sit for a long time and be just fine. I suspect there's something a mechanic could do with an abandoned gasoline car as well. The limiting factor, if we're talking full collapse of civilisation, is refined petroleum.
During the world wars, there were people converting IC engines to run off of wood gasifiers. For that, you either need the skills and tools to reprogram engine timings, or a carburator, though. Diesels can run on vegetable oil, and EVs can run off a solar panel, or, if still running, a wind turbine.
Horses aren't cheap or free to run, either. No matter what, there will be less vehicles, the ones that do exists will tend to be heavily loaded to save money (like you sometimes see in the third world) and they're going to take longer to get where they're going.
Horses can run off grass.
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The conversion is a possibility, but mechanics also requires an eco-system of parts or at least machining. Let's say you're a machinist. How are you going to run your machines without electricity? With a generator, of course. But what if you need a part for that generator?
There's an ever-expanding web of dependencies...
And you can scavenge and modify, but rubber's another issue. It gets dry and brittle with time. Where are you going to get more rubber?
You can figure something out with enough time and effort, I guess, but that's time and effort likely spent elsewhere, especially if gas isn´t cheap. A lot about vehicles requires economy of scale and global supply chains.
Solar electricity would still be an option. Lots of people will want electricity, so it's pricey, but if you're the only guy that can make essential machine parts you can probably afford it.
If you were a caveman starting over, a waterwheel has about the needed output. Heck, some of the first metal lathes might have run on those, historically.
Rubber might just be a wonder you'll have to do without, if you're somewhere temperate.
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Even bicycles would be ruined quite fast. Bearings are quite intricate things, you cant really make one on your own very easily. Unless you have some excellent metal making capabilities and accurate lathes. They also need lubrication.
My dad does some bicycling and hes doing small maintenance ever 80-100km or so. Major maintenance once or twice a year. Involves lubrication, cleaning stuff, tightening things, changing parts..
The amount of oil you need to lubricate something is much more doable, though. If there's not a drop of petroleum, castor oil was the historical choice, and animal fat is probably also thick enough to work.
Bearings are a massive chicken and egg problem if you don't have one to start with, but in this scenario you definitely start with them. You're probably not going to make the really fancy ones, but a basic roller, ball or journal bearing seems doable. They did it way back in the day, right?
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I don't think horses are common enough to be a common post-apocalyptic beast of burden. Besides, the apocalypse itself would probably cause food scarcity, and feeding the horse would most likely instead turn into eating the horse.
But yes, some elite factions m8ght use them for riding, but I suspect it would be very rare. I think The Postman, despite being an awful movie, has elements of realism, in that Holnists (or whatever the anti-Kevin faction was called) would usetheir power to gain access to horses. Or maybe their founder owned a horse ranch during the apocalypse and that's why they're powerful.
Oh yeah, and it'd take many decades to breed more.
There's some around here, and if the apocalypse came I don't doubt people would be riding, but it'd be a one per few families thing.
Cattle would probably be the main beast of burden at first.
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The problem with cars is primarily fuel. Gas is only good for a few months then it degrades fast. Now, they can be made to run on alcohol, but making enough alcohol to be feasible to fuel a car is a pretty big undertaking. Then you have things like oil, grease, and tires. Plus, modern cars are complicated and, honestly, pretty fragile once the roads start to degrade. Without maintenance, roads degrade pretty fast.
If you have to have an engine, motorcycle will be better,. but at the end of the day you still need fuel, oil, grease, and tires.
Horses are fine if you know how to ride and care for a horse. Horses eat a lot, not much of a problem, however, come winter time you're going to start searching for fodder. Horses require a lot of upkeep. Can you shoe.a horse and trim the hooves? No? Congratulations, your horse is now lame and the most humane thing to do is to shoot it. Horses are unpredictable and flighty. You might get lucky and get a calm horse that will comply with your commands, but I wouldn't bet on it. They are prey animals and they are jumpy as fuck. The amount of times I've had a horse drag me into the woods at full speed because it saw a stick that kinda looked like a snake is too many. If you must ride an animal, get a mule. He won't be as fast and might be more stubborn, but he also won't take you anywhere that will get you killed and he'll climb hills and mountains much better.
Bikes: Bikes are great and don't need much maintenance. However, once the roads are wrecked after a couple of winters, they lose a lot of practicality. Another problem is that they require you to up your calorie intake in an environment where that may not be possible or will at least be difficult. Tires are still a problem, but at least changing a bike tire is easy. One problem I see is that once the roads are potholed and grown over, off road areas are even more overgrown, granted, a good mountain bike will still make it through, but you'll be burning even more calories.
If you don't have the calories to spend, you're not traveling on foot, either. Depending on how good you are with the gears and how horrible the roads are, slow biking might actually burn less.
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I wanna see people wait months with a tiny solar panel trying to charge their ev so they can drive a couple of miles
At that point, find somebody with an ebike or something, and let them charge in exchange for a ride.
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I think you'd see more bikes. A lot less upkeep than a horse, you can find them relatively easy, and they can sit in a garage for months or years and only need some minor maintenance to get going again.
Edit: I can't think of any books I've read recently that depicts primarily bike based transportation though. Probably because it doesn't look super cool lol
Bigger pedal-powered vehicles might make sense, too. There's less sensitivity to extra weight from a primitive construction. Those mobile peddleable bars for tourists come to mind.
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Horses can run off grass.
Which isn't anywhere near infinite. Humans also run off of grass (wheat, oats, barely, rice...), in most traditional societies.
You're not even saved the trouble of gathering it if there's a snowy winter to get through. Plus, there's shoeing and various kinds of other care to factor in.
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One thing I always look at in post-apocalyptic literature is how they treat transportation: notably, are people still driving cars and how long can they do so and under what conditions?
Entering our current oil crunch, I think it's obvious how fragile the ecosystem around cars are, but just letting the car sit unused and untreated for as little as a month can start to introduce\ problems. The idea that you can just pop into a car that's been abandoned for 3 years, pull the keys out from behind the visor, and start driving is unrealistic.
-
Best: The Postman. We're back to walking and riding horses.
-
Good: The Last of Us, Season 1. People walk or ride horses, when our heroes DO find a working truck, it is treated as the jackpot it is--and I think it even had a spare gas tank in the back to maximize distance traveled to harvest gasoline. Realistically, gas as a fuel for fires would be a valuable enough commodity that it would have been scavenged, but they need to do some traveling and high speed dragons are not available in this genre (Reign of Fire aside).
-
Worst: Jericho. Nuclear explosions in the US pretty much wreck everything and despite the town of Jericho being completely isolated, people just drive their pickup trucks around all seasons long without comment. Horses and bicycles are maddeningly present but rarely used. I think the show thought American audiences could accept a premise where the federal government collapses after multiple nuclear strikes, but not where people in Kansas got off oil dependency--that would be too out there.
Parable of the Sower.
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Lathe + drill + foundry to cast a big enough chunk for the lathe and drill. Rivets for putting together the frame. (And some power source to run your shop)
Maybe an endmill or even CNC machine, if you're feeling fancy, or welding for the frame (someone else might know what exact kind of welding you need).
Rivets for putting together the frame.
Nobody rivets together a bike frame. Frames are brazed, welded, or (in the case of carbon fiber, bamboo, or occasionally aluminum) glued. The only places I've ever seen rivets on a bike are on the chain, old-school leather saddles, and maybe to attach layers of stamped steel on really cheap brake calipers.
Maybe an endmill or even CNC machine
Or even just a set of hand files.
or welding for the frame (someone else might know what exact kind of welding you need).
More carefully-constructed bikes typically use TIG, and for aluminum you want an AC welder. But who's going to be making a titanium, aluminum, or even fancy steel (with Tange or Columbus double-butted tubes) bike in the apocalypse? Any welding process would work for steel, especially when you're building out of random scrap plumbing pipe or whatever.
Your most realistic options would be stick, MIG, or even just brazing with a propane torch. Or building your bike frame from bamboo lashed together with rope and glued with pine resin.
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Cars made sense in the beginning, but after two or three seasons, finding gas that hasn't gone bad would be next to impossible.
Eh, gasoline going bad isn't quite the on-off switch a lot of the show's critics think it is. I've personally revived cars with years-old gas in the tanks before - sure, they run like shit, but they can still be driven, in an emergency anyway. Or post-apocalypse.
Personally, what grinds my gears, is every abandoned car's battery still having enough juice to start the engine. Nobody ever needs a jump start.
Although, timeline-wise, most of the show takes place over the course of less than two years. It's not until the middle of season 9, the third-to-last season, that there's a time skip of more than a few months.
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Which isn't anywhere near infinite. Humans also run off of grass (wheat, oats, barely, rice...), in most traditional societies.
You're not even saved the trouble of gathering it if there's a snowy winter to get through. Plus, there's shoeing and various kinds of other care to factor in.
??? You don't need infinite grass to feed a horse. It grows. They roam.
Humans need to plant specific species that we can digest, and then process it so that we can digest those parts because we can't eat the whole thing, and then cook it. We can't just eat it raw in the field. This is nowhere near the same. I can't even.
You do know wild horses exist right?
*I think I'm just gonna leave it at that.
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??? You don't need infinite grass to feed a horse. It grows. They roam.
Humans need to plant specific species that we can digest, and then process it so that we can digest those parts because we can't eat the whole thing, and then cook it. We can't just eat it raw in the field. This is nowhere near the same. I can't even.
You do know wild horses exist right?
*I think I'm just gonna leave it at that.
Nice mansplaining, city person. I'm from a farming family, and live in a rural area that has all these things.
You need a certain amount of pasture land (and fodder during the winter). If you don't have enough, the grass runs out - that's called overgrazing.
(And because I've had this kind of argument on Lemmy before, imma point out that the animals you eat probably ate staple crops. On this continent, at least, we grain-finish everything)
We can’t just eat it raw in the field. This is nowhere near the same. I can’t even.
No, you gather it, pull off the seeds, and if you want to avoid a lot of chewing, grind it a bit. I'm sure all ready from your local bakery it seems like magic, but it's not.
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